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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 11:45:00 - [1] Unfortunately I can only see this having the opposite effect and costing CCP money. I lost count of how many people I know who reactivated because they had a skill finish that allowed them to do something they couldn't do before they stopped playing. Without this incentive I see CCP denied years worth of subscriptions to save a month. Why come back and start playing if all you can do upon your return is exactly what you could do before ? And skills, believe it or not, don't effect other players in the slightest. If you're talking about inactive accounts producing things, start talking about passive RP, given they actually effect the economy. I think the nerf bat landed on the wrong thing here. I wonder how many of the people that stopped their accounts recently were because of the increased GTC prices or their currency dropping ? I don't imagine any stopping of their skills will cause them to reactivate, but it will more than likely cause them to not ever think about reactivating again.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 11:54:00 - [2] When are inactive accounts going to be deleted ? Because unless you have monkey with below average intelligence coding your database, an account with training skills should have no more load than one not training. The very reason 'ghost training' is possible is because of this fact, that you don't have to actually 'check' if the skill is completed until someone logs in.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:02:00 - [3] Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson shit for free! More and more that actually sums it up.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:56:00 - [4] Next month they will introduce it so you only train when logged out. To reduce the load on the servers of course.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 12:57:00 - [5] Doesn't this give more credence to the crowd that want to be reimbursed for lost training over extended downtimes, I mean, before we were supposedly paying for the right to maybe be allowed to login, now they're saying it's the right to be training something ?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 13:58:00 - [6] Originally by: Adam Slysphere If you guys were at the helm of CCP you'd do the same thing ... People are "playing" the game without paying for it. No much of a way to run a business. If "playing" the game can be done without logging in, ever, the game is a failure.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Gnulpie I paid because your account needs database space, with each patch that affects the characters the database needs to be updated also even for inactive accounts and so on. So you didn't pay for it, someone else did and the only people who are paying are those active subscribers. They paid for you. You don't pay - you get nothing. Simple, easy and fair. That's the thing though, the amount of info being stored is trivial, and no more information is stored for chars that are being trained over those that are not. Players that haven't played for years are using as much resource as those who have paid recently, thus those who have paid recently, are 'paying' for people who will never pay again. IF they were actually serious about it causing database load, they'd be trying to remove rows, and thus completely remove inactive accounts. But they're not. They're removing the ability to train, which will actually cause MORE load on the database, because previously, if a char never logged in (inactive) their skill training was never checked, and thus created no load. If you never tried to login, they don't even need to check if your account is active. Now they need to check if your account is active all the time, so they can stop training if it is not. This change will create extra database load. The worst bit about this is that they're treating us like we don't know this, like we're all 'you', and have no idea how things work, and will just accept the fictional reason they give us. There is only one reason to implement this change, and that's if they want more money and figure the extra handful of people that sign up 100% of the time instead of 75% will make up for the load of people that never resubscribe.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Adam Slysphere CCP's income is in euro's, so they're no financially in trouble like other in Iceland. All though apparently they went to the same school of false economics, and so are doing the best to achieve very short term gains for longer term losses.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 14:26:00 - [9] Originally by: lucy stirling Well i don't see what is wrong what CCP are doing. I have two characters and there payed for i think if you want more then 1 character then you must be willing to pay for it as you are the one that desided you have another character. To me it make perfect sence as CCP is a game that people love and hate sometimes. CCP make a great game and for them to make this great game and improve it they need people to pay for there time on the game. I know this upset people but they need to know they are a Company that has people that work for them and very good people too and they have to pay there wages and so on. May agaist other people i am not just i can understand what CCP are doing. Which would be the point if this didn't do the complete opposite of the stated goal. Doesn't decrease database load (will increase it) Doesn't give them more money long term (though I don't doubt it will 'this month') Doesn't fix a bug, (is a feature that attracts players back to the game) Since CCP pay much of their wages in ISK, and the ISK just dropped big time vs the Euro/USD which they get subscriptions in, they should actually be doing better already.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Triksterism Originally by: Adam Slysphere Originally by: Lag This change is complete crap. Why should I pay for a months time that my character will not be able to do anything? it is doing something. It's learning a new skill ... Which is basically just a clock ticking while you take a break from the game. No bandwidth use and anyone is free to do it. Actually it isn't even a clock ticking. It's a picture of the clock at the time you put that skill on. When you actually pay and login again, they take another picture, compare the two, and THEN work out if your skill is finished or not. The load of a training char is actually the same as one that isn't training, when inactive. Of course if they make this change, then they need to keep looking at the clock all the time, and comparing it to your training clock and payment clock. Where as if they don't they don't need to look at either of these unless you login. There are some tricky ways around that sure to lead to some bugs, but basically they're not reducing the effort or load any, not unless they start completely erasing inactive chars and everything they own. Even then the difference would be immeasurable. Quote: although it probably won't effect ccp to much, lets face it there will still be 30k+ players logged in tonight and tommorow and the day after that 22k now :o I remember when we were thinking it would break PCU 50k soon... Jumped the shark..
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:13:00 - [11] I don't see what the EULA has to do with this. There's no disputing CCP's 'right' to do this. They can do anything, delete everyone's stuff, anything. This is merely a question of the impact is has on the people that pay money to continue to play the game, or to play the game again, etc. If CCP do something that negatively affects their relationship with their players and their bottom line as well, it wouldn't be fair to them to just quietly stop playing now would it? Regardless of what you think about the change, being intentionally or unintentionally (not sure which is worse) LIED TO by CCP about their reasons for a change, simply does not sit well.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Adam Reed Originally by: Moon Kitten Originally by: Adam Reed What utter nonsense, how can people be so blinkered as to think that there's any commercial benefit in CCP allowing people to train skills like this? They are a company trying to make a profit, and as much as I'm in favour of smashing capitalism if you're going to have it you have to accept that companies will do what they can to maximse profits. Frankly I didn't know that this 'ghost training' existed and was surprised to hear that it did, and has lasted so long. To the people moaning about this change, shut up and pay like the rest of us, or sod off and play Guild Wars. Fair play to CCP I say. Stop thinking about the quarterly financial report and start thinking more long term. Perhaps in terms of years. What? They are a company, a profit-making company. Why should they provide a service to people who aren't paying them? Justify that in any other industry and I'll pay attention. If your point is that allowing it will help them somewhere down the line, you've lost me, I don't see how it would. The board of CCP will have considered that when they made the decision and wouldn't have done it if it's likely to impact future profits. The point is that this will make them profit this month. This will lose them profit next month, and the month after, and in pretty short order lose them money over all. They actually don't have to provide any service to people with inactive accounts training that they don't provide to people with inactive accounts already (that is maintain a database record at the cost of a fraction of a cent). People who stop paying, can not login. They can't change skills. They don't get any of the service. All that happens is that when they PAY to resubscribe, the last thing they were training, has finished. That's it. It requires them to pay. Money. For This. Thing. That costs CCP nothing.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:41:00 - [13] Originally by: Tag Ibby Serious Question CCP. Did you talk to a lawyer before doing this? Pretty sure it was a lawyer they talked to. Because it wasn't a DBA. It wasn't an economist. It wasn't someone in marketing. It wasn't someone that plays the game. They can legally do this, if you dispute this, you need to study law more. All you pay for is the right to pay them. They don't even have to have the server available for you to login, ever. There is nothing wrong with them doing this from a legal point of view. Every other point of view however.........
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Annaphera CCP has the right to change game function in any way they like, when ever they like; most of those changes will mess with something in the players' guide. The players guide doesn't list or comment on intent. Why has no one ever accused them of lying for it before? Not that it is lying, but why is it carted out and held out as proof that CCP lies only now? Its the sheer magnitude of the reaction that baffles me. Obviously they have that right. I don't dispute that. They can do anything with the game, it is theirs. We don't own it. We just pay to continue to maybe once in a while think about being allowed to login. They're lying not in the players guide, but in their reasons for making the change. You need to wake up and pay attention if you think this is the first, or even fiftieth time they have lied to their player base and treated us like idiots. Because either they think we are, or they are.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 15:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Richard Aiel active subscription request: http://eve.coldfront.net/status/tranquility It looks like over the year that the population is climbing not declining, but after this news we'll see PCU for the year was in March, looks like a decline since then to me. 42711 then, 39317 PCU in the last month. I'm betting the subscription numbers have down turned a lot more. Word economics, 60 day GTCs, the game. etc etc.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 16:03:00 - [16] Five and a Half years for something retrospectively described as a bug-fix. Only four to go until this implant does something then !
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.14 23:40:00 - [17] See, the thing about bugs, the defining measure of what a bug is, is that either the developers don't know about it, or haven't been able to fix it. Given that developers knew about it, and put it in the guide AND it was 'fixed' for Serenity. This means that it doesn't satisfy either of those two. It is a change which was deliberately chosen to not be implemented years ago, and thus NOT a bug. That you continue to insult our intelligence with this line is worse than the change itself.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 10:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Abrazzar Yay for over 100 pages! Now if you remove all alt account alt character posts and one man army spam you probably drop down to 20 pages, lol. Considering this affects the people with a dozen accounts the most the artificial inflation of posts by armies of alts is very likely. Good thing CCP can see what's an alt and what's not, so they have a better sense of dimension than this thread implies. Actually the people effected who are 'ghost training' can't actually post so.... If you add all of those in..... Not to mention there are heaps of people in here with dozens of chars that are only posting with one. If at all (with such a swift introduction, a lot of people probably have no idea yet, as they may not be online until the first weekend after the announcement. The nano nerf got 147 pages in three months. In a day and a half the official threads about this have had far more than that. The thing is that it isn't the people that are threatening to quit (or actually quitting) that will cause CCP the most harm long term. It's all the people who unsubscribe because they don't WANT to play, not because they don't have to. And who simply will not resubscribe now, as the incentive of having finished that skill you didn't have when you left the game isn't there any more. I know dozens of people who have come back to the game after quitting 'for good' because they wanted to see what this new skill was. I doubt any of them would have returned if their chars were not progressed at all. The reasons for the changes given are all blatantly obvious lies, and the only reason anyone can actually see that makes sense, ie. 'more money' is going to backfire horribly. People are already paying as much for the game as they wish to, be that for another char or whatever. If they have to pay more, they're simply going to reorganise around it. If you actually wanted to pay for an account to be active, you certainly wouldn't be one of the people ghost training anyway.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 11:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Rancid Oswald Wrong! The "feature" was un-intended, aka a bug. It was never "part of the game" It was not "advertised" though it was "documented" when discovered. Wrong! For it to be a bug, it has to be either unknown or something you are not yet able to fix. This is how it has always worked on the Serenity server, so the 'fix' to this 'bug' was available years ago, and it was deliberately not implemented. You know what they call behaviour that is preserved intentionally ? I'll give you a hint. It's not a bug. You don't go putting 'extra' effort into writing a version that behaves differently then sit on a 'bug fix' for several years. This is the feature that became a bug. If it ever was a bug, instead of being documented in the player guide, it would be documented in the known issues list. That's where you document 'bugs'.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:08:00 - [20] Originally by: Jac Straw So yes maybe CCP are doing this to raise more money or to cut overheads in some way. Either way companys adapt or fail and are never seen again. I think that's sort of the point, it's going to lose them money, and increase overheads. And I'm not talking about rage quitters. I'm talking about the psychological construct that gets ex-players to return to the game. This isn't something that anyone posting here is doing, it's the people that quit for non-rage reasons, that are going to lose the incentive to return, thus costing CCP money. The situation is lose-lose. There is no winner here, not even CCP. I don't think people would mind paying more for the game, or even donating money if it helped improve the game, but here is a decision being made without any respect for the significant negative consequences it will have to their bottom line.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Marus Safeld I once considered CCP a company I could work for. Now I find myself wondering if they could actually affort my skills. They must be paying peanuts, because they're getting monkeys. Thank god it's impossible for the devs to be less competent than the PR people.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:27:00 - [22] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 15/10/2008 12:28:38 Originally by: DjLowballer Could someone explain to me why they are so angry? Just pay for your extra accounts. This idea of entitlement that you should be able to progress in the game without paying makes no sense what so ever. Really, EvE players are supposed to be on the smarter side of the MMO spectrum but some of the replies here are just ignorant. It's not about the money, it's about the principle. Plenty of us would pay twice as much, it's the fact that this change is going to cost CCP money, thus making the game worse for all of us who are paying. You don't progress without paying, your skill continues to train however you can't login, or change the skill, or take advantage of it, without paying again. The point is that without that incentive, many people simply will NOT pay again, thus CCP will lose money. It's one thing to go on about ignorance, but another to do it without actually reading any of the responses before stating that they're ignorant. Even paying for all accounts and never ghost training, the reasoning given here is just a blatant lie. It would be easier to accept if they were telling the truth, people don't respond well to being lied too, even if they don't care about the content of the lie.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 12:31:00 - [23] Originally by: Ganymede21 Originally by: CCP Wrangler As the recent news stated, we will disable the ability to train skills on a suspended account. Since this has caused a lot of debate we've decided to explain why we are making this change in a new Dev Blog by t0rfifrans: Why ghost training was disabled. I totaly agree to disable ghost training...too bad GTC prices will blow up ..and at this rate i wonder if they'll cost 1 bil in a month or so ~X( They may increase in the next month, but they will decrease significantly after that when people find their alt is no longer cost effective, thus decreasing the demand for GTCs and CCP's overall revenue stream.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 22:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon I would like to give you the following quote from a member from MMORPG. The User Enkidu said the perfect response to most people here: Quote: I've been playing EvE for 4 years on and off. I never used "ghost training" because it seemed unethical to me- sort of like buying a suit to wear to a job interview and then returning it afterward. I've worked in several industries and professions, and I don't recall ever feeling obligated to provide service to a customer who had stopped paying for that service. Many of my associates in the game would say "I'm going inactive while I train BS V," or something similar- amd it always struck me as a bit sleazy. here's a phenomenon I like to call "ungrateful housepet syndrome:" When you scratch a dog's head, the dog likes it, and the dog gets used to it. When you stop, the dog doesn't think "wow that was nice, thanks for scratching my head while it lasted," but rather looks at you as if to say "why the hell are you stopping? how dare you!" People are the same way.. if you offer them access to a pleasant or advantageous situation and they get used to it, and then circumstances change for PERFECTLY VALID reasons, they NEVER say "hey thanks, that was cool while it lasted..." but rather "this sucks! I'm getting screwed!" Things like this are just part of a constantly growing mountain of evidence that more and more people have no sense of personal honor or the desire to do the right thing JUST BECAUSE it's the right thing to do. All people care about is what they can get away with. Okay, you can get back to the whinefest now. Woof. If I'm getting this analogy right, CCP is the dog, right? Because they're certainly biting the hand that feeds them.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.15 22:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Aryen Striker Just lots of people whinning about a free-bee. Good on you CCP, paying subscribers only ... clean out the DB trash. Pay a subscription or go to a free MMORPG The list is endless .............. not. Cleaning out the DB only makes a remote amount of sense if they actually delete inactive chars. All of them, training or not. Given that ones that are training are more likely to return to the game, and will actually have to pay in order to do so.... Sounds like a good reason for many people to not return. What CCP is saying is that they want more subscribers, but they want them to not login. How long before skill training only happens when you're logged out ?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Jinx Barker 7) They go ahead with the unpopular change, and kill the training of all inactive characters. And today the server gets stuck in a 'starting up' loop post downtime. Which wouldn't at all have to do with the extra buggy code they introduced yesterday now would it ?
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:10:00 - [27] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 16/10/2008 12:10:21 Originally by: Grimnir Originally by: Don Shadow Show me ANY mmo where you need at least 1(ONE)YEAR of training to be able to use a ****ing armor or sword! Show my ANY mmo where you can use the biggest and best armor or swords without having to either pay for your account or spend any time at it. Certainly not Eve. Even ghost trainers had to spend time and money.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.16 12:18:00 - [28] Originally by: Garia666 Its probably posted a 100 times already but the ghost training isnt an unintended feature. Its was even added in the online eve manual. I have realy no clue of who CCP t0rfifrans is. but he is deff not well informed. Altough personaly i have no opinion on the content of this blog. i do on the way how it is communicated to the community.. And yes Quote: Does that mean that CCP is a greedy money chewing monster that just loves nerfing things? I do think CCP does this entirely for the money. That's the worst part for me, not that they're doing it for extra money, but because they're doing it for extra money but will end up with less. If I thought they would actually make money from it, at least someone, somewhere would benefit from it.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.17 08:37:00 - [29] Originally by: DJ Geist (Sarcasm) you know, 14 day trial accounts should be banned as well. Its basically pre-subscription ghost training. The vast majority of eve characters probably started with these scandalous, time-begging, freeloading accounts. Its pathetic really, I don't even understand why free trials exist. Why the hell would a BUSINESS give out something for FREE? Can you imagine? But wait, Ghost training accounts place no load on the server, and are unable to log in, these vicious trial accounts can ! What an outrage ! Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.17 11:01:00 - [30] Originally by: Mithrantir Ob'lontra Are you really believing what you are saying here? Yes, I'm truly astounded in the face of all the proof anyone could believe otherwise. Quote: The incentive to come back to the game after a year or even 6 months, is not the fact that you may have trained a measly skill of 1 month (we are talking about a lv5 of a skill you already have it to lv4). For some people that plays a hugely significant role in their decision. Remember, you can have trained a 45 day skill quite easily and now have access to capitals or a new range of T2 ships for which that skill is a prerequisite. Quote: It's the fact that you know that your character still exists and is the same old one you left alongside with the game, with all his assets. Something no other MMO gives you as far as I know. Shows what you know. ALL good MMOs give you that, and many give you further incentives to return. (much cheaper subs, faster XP etc etc). If Eve wants to join the ranks of the MMOs that delete all your stuff, they can also join their status financially. Quote: The reason one comes back is because he likes the game deep down and just got nostalgic for the people he knows through this game. All the excuses about the incentive a skill can provide to someone, who really quit the game, is just plain old bullshit. ^ Bullshit. Quote: The ghost training that was allowed until recently was being overused by a number of people not because they couldn't play on a regural or semi-regural basis, but because they wanted to have a fully grown and advanced character with minimal costs. 'overused' means a lot of people QUIT lately, or obtained an extra account, due to CCP's power of 2 offer. World economic downturn causes people to shed accounts, that or the game isn't attractive to people anymore. Quote: That is what forced CCP to disable it. So I guess if you and the rest want to vent at someone, you better start looking for the ones who overused this so called feature (while CCP devs have multiple times in the past said it was a bug that was left untouched as a gift of sorts) and forced CCP to revoke it. Nothing forced them to disable it, they simply decided to, in their words they're doing fine financially. So either that's bullshit, or this is. Quote: You are the ones to blame and not CCP. lol. Just lol. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.18 06:42:00 - [31] Originally by: Mika Meroko meh, very simple: Skill training matters, buy orders/contract other stuff = meh, doesnt make that much of a difference.. leaving those orders for 1 year ... yeah, good luck ...(the limit is 2 weeks on contract and market is 90 days max too...so theres already a limit..) skill training... yeah, I can put in 9 months worth of skilltraining EASY.... and that 9 months of skills trained make a HUGE difference than any contract/buysell order... you pay to get the REAL benefits. nuff said... Most people will only have a couple of week skill training when their accounts expire, those some a month skill. Very very few may have 2 month skill (of which there are not all that many, and can only be gained after you've done many many shorter skills first. So 9 months of skill training ? You realise they actually need to pay to change the skill ? Or to actually login ? Cancelling buy/sell/factory orders if an account is inactive is a little stupid, (equivalent in SP would be removing SP since you lose brokerage and things when orders cancelled or factory orders cancelled, not to mention they can be done 'for corp'. RP gain on the other hand, shouldn't be done while a char is inactive THIS actually does effect game balance (whereas skills do not, they merely effect char trading which is meta-gaming not the game itself, and since you can effectively buy isk there, char trading is the least of anyone's concern). Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.18 06:47:00 - [32] Originally by: Doomsday Originally by: Sandy Minge Edited by: Sandy Minge on 17/10/2008 16:32:55 Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 17/10/2008 12:21:24 EVE: Month 1: Whiner pays for play time and skill training. Month 2: Whiner demands free skill training because he paid last month. Restaurant: Month 1: Whiner pays for meal and drinks. Month 2: Whiner demands free drinks because he paid last month. Both are companies selling their products. Why is one required to give away theirs for free? I go to clubs and restaurants quite a lot (at least 1x per week). So I usually give large tips and, in exchange, I get free drinks, free entrance, guestlist listings, vip accesses. The day my fellow bartenders or restaurant managers refuse to give me a freeby here and there I am going to reevaluate my clubbing habits. CCP want there tips monthly and regular. A man who chases two rabbits catches none. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.18 17:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Chani Fedaykin the recent 'declaration' of 'ghost training' as 'bug' is ridiculous because it was known for 5? years Knowing about it is the first thing that makes it not a bug, the second thing is that it was 'fixed' for the launch of the Chinese server years ago. Knowing how something works, and deliberately choosing to not change that when you have the means to do so easily available makes it a feature. Unless CCP are trying to say that they actually fix bugs years before they let us have the fixes as standard practice. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.18 18:02:00 - [34] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu CCP let us get free SP for five years. It was an awesome practice, but if you look at it from a business standpoint, it was a slice of potential profits CCP wasn't getting. They're a corporation, and they need to make money. Hell, Iceland just went bankrupt. Can you really blame them for a little extra nickel-and-diming? It's flawed to believe that anything gained without payment would translate into payment if you HAD to pay for that gain. More likely it would translate to a lack of that gain instead, and in this case the lack of payment as well. Just like places give out free stuff to their customers, they're not losing the money from the free stuff, they're gaining a customer that they wouldn't otherwise have thanks to the sweetener. This was in no way ever 'free' it was simply at a reduced cost if you didn't login which made the servicing cost for CCP 0. If I could give free stuff to my clients that cost me 0 I certainly would, as it is it costs me time to do so, but pays me back 100x over in what they buy not for free. If CCP were up front about their reasoning, and not just making up lies to taint it, and I actually thought it would make them money in the long run, I'd be all for it. It's actually going to be better for 'me' long run as it stands, but I don't think it will be better for them, or the game. Originally by: Face deBouc Cool i'have post in a 147 pages thread Now, please CCP shoot the ghost market orders, ghost R&D and any other ghost. Ghost RP affects game balance a little, as more RP for those people means less value per RP, which actually, out of all things listed here DOES affect other people. Factory/lab jobs / market orders don't really, the penalty for factory/lab jobs being cancelled is actually not just the absence of progress but the destruction of materials, they can also be placed 'for corp' so materials belonging to paying subscribers can be destroyed in that case if someone else doesn't pay their sub on time. Trading can really only be done effectively with an active account, it doesn't take much to make someone with an inactive account lose money, you can undercut them, or sell a heap of stuff to them that becomes cheaper for some reason since they stopped playing. Leaving the game with buy orders is a fairly sure way to come back to the game with a pile of crap you paid way too much for. Stopping RP gain for inactive accounts. Yeah, sure. About the only thing that SHOULD have been changed, but that would require effort, to make the skill change simply required them to get the code they wrote YEARS ago for the Chinese server. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.19 06:51:00 - [35] Originally by: Davina Braben Maybe I'm wrong and checking the calendar against the skill end dates is tremendous server load costing CCP every bit of the subscription fee to manage and maybe this will have no impact on their revenue. Before this change, that checking was only done when you logged in, only after you got past the login server which was connected to the payment data. (so it was only possible for paid accounts to cause any load. After this change the billing server needs to be connected to the live server, in order to make a database change when people deactivate their accounts. So the reverse is true, this change will CAUSE the very issue they touted it as solving. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.19 07:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Drew Falcon Anyway, the ones making the biggest deal about it will quit for a week and come right back when boredom peaks. These things tend to blow over with little memory remaining, (BOB's tech 2 BPO's anybody?) It's not the ones making the biggest deal about it that are going to cause the drop in subscription numbers. The number of accounts people have each, and the number that get reactivated are going to drop the hardest. The 'emo rage quit' is going to be by far a minor effect in comparison. The carrot is more effective than the stick. CCP may have got out the stick, but they also got rid of the carrot. The T2 BPO incident, while deplorable, didn't actually effect anyone 'directly' and given the passage of time and things like dyspro moons, any long standing effect they had is certainly now insignificant. 60 Day GTCs, I could see while not the best way to do it, is somewhat of a billing issue. It didn't affect the live server directly. The ratio between isk and GTC's wasn't really CCP's to set. Of course now less $$$ buys more ISK, people need to spend less $$$, which decreases supply (also decreasing because IRL people have less free $$$ these days), and this further increases the amount of ISK you get for your $$$. Again, forcing away more players (as many many people while paying for their main account, used this to justify alts that they wouldn't pay for. Imagine IRL, if you had a discount food offer on Tuesdays say, because Tuesdays were your lowest business days. And you noticed on other days your business wasn't as busy any more. Cancel your discount day? Or offer better value on other days ? If price/value was a concern for people, giving them less value isn't going to cause them to spend more, it's going to cause them to spend less. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.19 07:08:00 - [37] Originally by: Lady Sheiba Originally by: Lord Fitz Originally by: Davina Braben Maybe I'm wrong and checking the calendar against the skill end dates is tremendous server load costing CCP every bit of the subscription fee to manage and maybe this will have no impact on their revenue. Before this change, that checking was only done when you logged in, only after you got past the login server which was connected to the payment data. (so it was only possible for paid accounts to cause any load. After this change the billing server needs to be connected to the live server, in order to make a database change when people deactivate their accounts. So the reverse is true, this change will CAUSE the very issue they touted it as solving. I thought that too, but in reality it won't cause any load. It will simple increase downtime by a very tiny amount, as they will do this checking during downtime. At the moment if your sub runs out, your account is only deactivated during downtime, I figure they now run a code associated with this deactivation which will pause any skill training on the account. It's no coincidence that every day since this was implemented the server has had start-up issues and DT has overrun the scheduled time even on the weekend when they usually don't do extra work on the DB. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.19 09:18:00 - [38] Edited by: Lord Fitz on 19/10/2008 09:21:07 Originally by: Clansworth Originally by: Azraeljbs I myself have monitored the character bazaar and noticed a huge jump in activity over the last week. See, it WAS mostly character farmers using the feature, and now that it's gone, they're selling off their stock.. ;-) By that logic you're a character farmer, because you have a character. It was people that had a character that they were not constantly using, that doesn't make them character farmers, had the change not gone through they probably would have kept them forever and not sold them. I have never bought or sold any characters, but this change will likely result in me selling one, as I never actually use him anyway. And the plus is, he will net me a lot more ISK as a result. In fact any one who has a high SP char will benefit in this way, making it only harder for new players. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.19 11:24:00 - [39] Originally by: SPQRMocton OK will you guys who say your going to quit do it already and stop posting ? The herd needs some thinning < I have way to much competition in t2 inventing , all you whiner t2 inventors quit now please. And all you mission running whiners quit please your oversaturation of the the market of rare items is really depressing prices. O and CCP GIVE 'EM HELL don't back down It won't be us T2 inventors quitting, it'll be our customers :( Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.22 05:46:00 - [40] "someone who was not knowledgeable about the code itself" I'm glad we got rid of all those people, and don't let them do things like, I dunno, write Dev blogs and give interviews anymore. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.22 05:52:00 - [41] Originally by: Tarasios He quoted that there are around 250,000 subscribers to EveOnline. Assuming that they are all yearly accounts, (which we know is obvously not the case, many people are paying more than that), it's an easy calculation to see how much money they get every year... Even if you factor in the possibility that only 75% of players are actually paying, (others are paying with isk), CCP doesn't accept ingame ISK as payment for an account. CCP only accepts USD or Euros. Those paying with ingame ISK have OTHER PEOPLE paying the USD to CCP for them instead. More USD than CCP would be getting if they paid via CC. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.22 11:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Parasite S "WeÆve got an expansion coming out called Quantum Rising Amazingly the expansion is actually called Quantum Rise. But getting things right, not so important. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.10.23 11:16:00 - [43] Originally by: Richard Aiel Having an argument in another thread on another page with a guy/gal whose position is as follows: Quote: And yet weirdly daily playing numbers remain steady at 25,000 + players per day on weekdays, 30,000 + at weekends. Seriously the whole issue is a storm in a teacup. What so all those people who are cancelling are still bothering to log in and play are they? Maybe a few would be, but seriously if any amount worth worrying about (like the 1000s that some would have us believe) were actually quitting you'd expect a few thousand less players per night already. If you inted to quit an MMO there is literally ZERO point in playing it. Last night at 6.30pm GMT there were 33,000 players online... As i said its a huge storm in a teacup. And while we are on the subject in an interview to explain the Ghost training thing a CCP guy said only 4.5% (or something like that) of the player base actually used ghost training anyway. And id imagine that 98% of those were second or even 3rd accounts of existing players. I need argument fodder as Im bad at it ...and Discuss!! Oh, this is too easy. CCP maintain 4% of accounts were taking advantage of this, which being as they are most likely 2nd or 3rd accounts probably translates to 10% of the population. There are 250,000 subscribers (or there was in March, and we're led to believe this has dropped). PCU was 42711. You say that's down to 30,000+ ? That's 12,711 less players than peak. Keep in mind that the Ghost training will only effect 2nd/3rd accounts, so you wouldn't expect to see it reflected in the logged in numbers, but rather the subscriber numbers only. The effect this has on CCP isn't going to be from people quitting over this, it's going to be from people who don't resubscribe. The people quitting is just an added sting. Also, most of them aren't quitting outright, they're simply shedding accounts (and revenue) for CCP, removing accounts that were seldom used in favour of the accounts they use the most often (so the amount of equipment CCP has to buy to service each account will increase). As you point out, if 98% of those are 2nd/3rd accounts, that actually makes it worse. It means that rather than affecting those 4%, it's actually affecting 10% or so account holders. You have to make the distinction between players and account holders, which you are not doing. Then there's everyone who never made use of it, resenting that they can no longer do so if they ever were in the circumstances where they couldn't or didn't want to play. And everyone else who it doesn't affect at all who despise being lied to about the reasons. And then, there's the extra load it places on the server to actually MAKE this change. The very reason it was originally coded as a possibility was that it meant that inactive accounts took 0 CPU cycles. Now inactive accounts will cause CPU cycles to be used to make sure they're not training. A storm in a teacup isn't much of an issue unless your entire universe is a 4 place setting. Originally by: CCP t0rfifrans CCP is a greedy money chewing monster
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2008.12.10 16:20:00 - [44] You can argue 'fair' all you like, that is a strawman arguement. The real questions are if it actually WILL increase CCP's revenue, which it won't, it will decrease it. And why they feel the need to lie to the playerbase, repeatedly. There are many very smart people playing this game (and the rest), who don't take kindly to being treated like idiots.
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.02.08 14:05:00 - [45] Originally by: Makhan Jesus, people actually care enough about this garbage to get this thread to 203 pages months after the change was made? Who cares! Have a look at how many pages were created before the change went through, with the whole of what 2 days notice ? And it still hit records not even passed by devs cheating. The answer to who cares? Apparently more people than for any other whine, but not CCP. Which will put in perspective just how useful whines are about anything else.

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